[svlug] Inits (was: On the process of picking up systemd)

Ivan Sergio Borgonovo mail at webthatworks.it
Sat Jan 3 10:18:58 PST 2015


On 01/03/2015 02:00 PM, Rick Moen wrote:
> Ivan Sergio Borgonovo wrote:
>> Are you saying that people at RH, Ubuntu, SuSE, Debian (Google??) were
>> tricked into choosing a "technically inferior" solution even if they
>> knew there were "superior" viable alternatives?

> Wrong question - and no, I'm not a conspiracy nut.

Evidently you're missing my meta-discourse.

«I'll start by acknowledging the quotation marks indicating... to
outright conspiratorial[1] thinking, long ago gave this subjecct a bad
name.»

> The appropriate measure of code quality, and suitabily for serious
> enterprise use, is not 'Does Red Hat include it in the default
> installation?'  Sorry to have to break it to you.

Was I referring to just RH? Or to a whole ecosystem that is relaying on
Linux stack where RH surely plays an important part (one of the major
contributors to Linux kernel for example) but definitively and
fortunately is not the only party.

> At your leisure, you should look through the interesting architecture of
> uselessd, as he's abstracted out the components of the systemd hairball
> that are actually interesting, dropping both the extreme featuritis and the
> handcuffing of systems to PolKit, D-Bus,  udev, and the rest of the marching
> band of mandatory tight-coupled components that is the biggest single problem
> of the systemd suite.  In effect, he has extracted and made available the
> init.

> It still wouldn't be my own cuppa, because I find event-driven inits to make
> debugging gratuitously difficult (thus unacceptable in my view as a system
> administrator), but it's a notable offering otherwise, and illustrates
> through contrast what the main problem with the parent project is.

So uselessd is interesting and it is based on systemd but it is not
interesting since the only remaining part of systemd is event driven.
OK I'm not supposed to make rhetorical questions, should I find all the
question mark in this post? ooops...

Yeah, systemd would be nicer if it came with less coupling and uselessd
is nice, but it's time to go back under my rock.

Really, it is just incidental that I'm talking about technical details.
It's just... weren't we talking about Occam's razor?

>> But then you may be right, systemd was "forced" on a minority of people
>> that "typically hail from more niche distributions like Slackware,
>> Gentoo, CRUX and others"...

> This is of course nothing at all like anything I said.  Again, you're in
> search of a comspiracy nut to beat on.  Maybe you can hire Mark Bilk for hte
> purpose.

I'm citing the page you continue to say I haven't read. I never
attributed to you that sentence.
However I agree with most of the things written there actually.

>> For their use case systemd is "technically inferior".

> Read the rest of http://uselessd.darknedgy.net/ProSystemdAntiSystemd/ -- and
> lose the attitude, if it isn't epoxyed to your forehead at this point.

Funny as this as become personal, once more... do you remember the
Chrome conspiracy?

But this time let's keep the whole conversation public in spite of
forwarding to the list just the snippets you like of a conversation that
was meant to be private.

Should I swear I really was not criticizing you personally or searching
conspiracy nuts?
You're nearly monopolizing the list traffic and I say it in a positive
way, it's nearly impossible to discuss anything without discussing it
with you.
I admit my style (attitude?) could be irritating  when I try to be funny
or get my point (oh boy, let's open a club), but that's not an excuse to
leave the discussion finger pointing...

Once again, you're definitively a great resource for the newbies but it
is hard to come to a conclusion that is not confrontational when someone
disagree with you.
It is even rare to disagree with you because you're definitively
knowledgeable, but it may happen, especially when people grow up, learn
and build up their own opinion. The alternative is a group of impaired.

> I'm going to ignore the rest of your long list of tendentious qustions.
> Those aren't even actually questions at all, but rather speeches, and I
> really have no time or interest.

I thought you do like rhetoric, but well this is my last attempt too to
signal you a problem.

-- 
Ivan Sergio Borgonovo
http://www.webthatworks.it




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