[svlug] Linux an "upstart"?

Steve Hindle steve at itsage.com
Fri Jul 18 23:27:03 PDT 2003


Hi James,

  Seems like you've had quite a challenge with your linux endevours.  If I 
recall correctly, you mentioned having a couple of year of linux 
experience. Honest question here: do you really think it would have been 
different on _any_ other OS ?  Do you think it would have been any easier 
to keep an Exchange cluster running(again, honest question)?  Most of the 
guys I know doing server side stuff on MS servers have 5+ years on the job. 
Many have proffessional training.

I think that the 'hype' of computers is still way ahead of the reality. 
Computers might be 'easy to use', but they are far from 'easy to setup'. 
Just like some cars are 'easy' to tinker with but you still need a mechanic 
from time to time.

BTW - if you feel like giving it one last shot, I can tell you from 
experience that Cyrus IMAP, SquirrelMail, Postfix, and SpamAssassin all 
play together nicely on my Debian machines. Oh!, Debian has great package 
installation/configuration stuff.  Not pretty, not flashy - but generally 
VERY thorough.  I have to warn ya though -
Debian installs can be a PITA if you've never done one before, and it takes 
a good month to get used to how debian works.

Steve

--On Friday, July 18, 2003 6:31 PM -0700 James Leone 
<linuxcpa at netscape.net> wrote:

>
>
> ddhummel at pacbell.net wrote:
>
>  >On Fri, Jul 18, 2003 at 02:51:38PM -0700, James Leone wrote:
>  >
>  >
>  >>Thanks to Samba, its far from upstart in server space.
>  >>
>  >>
>  >
>  >Samba runs on other *nixes as well, and doesn't have much to do with the
>  >maturity of Linux.
>  >
> My focus is on tools available for Linux. I am not interested in trying
> other Unix.
>
>  > I think Bill was referring to Linux's maturity as a
>  >bona fide OS, not it's ability to integrate with MS systems.
>  >
> I added that aspect to the discussion, because it makes for a more
> meaningful analysis of the situation.
>
>  >Nonetheless, I'm amazed and amused by some of the stuff people write
>  >about Linux.  My favorite of late was this:
>  >
>  >http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/zd/20030715/tc_zd/44774
>  >
>  >where Mr. Eric Nee of CIO Insight proclaims that Linux is a "nascent and
>  >vulnerable operating system",
>  >
> I don't find that shocking at all.
>
> We already know that not many people here think that Linux should be
> used on the desktop in business.  To me it sounds like he's doing Linux
> desktop users a favor by spinning the momentum into a reality that Linux
> is destined to move into the desktop and Microsoft is making desparate
> moves to cut it at the heel. The SCO suit is an attack and does make us
> vulnerable.
>
>  >and no this was not an opinion piece.
>  >Where have these people been for the last few years?
>  >
> Struggling to use Linux on our desktops
>
>  >  Do they do any
>  >research before they write?
>  >
> I have, with a whole range of success, failure and hope.
>
>  >>Windows is easy to use.
>  >>
>  >>
>  >
>  >Yes, so easy that it requires very little knowledge of what your are
>  >actually configuring.
>  >
> That's the whole idea.
>
>  > Not so easy any more when that thing breaks,
>  >
> Just reinstall.  I am also told that XP breaks rarely.
>
> I have spent more time figuring things out how to set things up in Linux
> than I would have reinstalling windows twice as much as I did before.
>
>  >and the nice gui configuration tool does not provide any usable facility
>  >
> I ususally only see non useful or broken GUI's in Linux.
>
>  > for troubleshooting or fixing it, and the option simply doesn't exist
> in the  >cmd.exe.
>  >
>  >>I want an alternative that is just as easy to use.
>  >>
>  >>
>  >
>  >OK, but don't you think that once you've actually taken the time to
>  >learn how to configure and use a certain program/package/technology in
>  >Linux, it becomes straightforward and relatively _easy_ to do it again?
>  >
> In some cases yes, it is easy, just copy over your configuration files.
> I do that.
>
> However, the answer is no, for many Linux applications.
>
>  >>However, Linux is a mess in other areas of server space.
>  >>
>  >>
>  >
>  >I'm curious, can you provide some examples of what you are talking
>  >about?
>  >
>  >
> Well, lets take the web based mail and calandering applications as an
> example.
>
> I tried so many of these, most of them not working, that I lost count.
>
> So many that I have 0 faith in any of them working, exception being
> SuSE's OpenExchange Server.
>
> I have tried:
>
> phpgroupware (Unclear as to how this works)
> timesheet.php (Installs but doesn't work)
> Mozilla calander (Never seemed to work)
> Projekt (calander works, but not the billing or time entry)
> Qmail (Used to work - now it doesn't now I have to read a Novel Life
> with Qmail to get it to work)
> Squirrelmail (IMAP never works)
> IMAP (See squirrelmail)
>
> Time to stop.
>
>
> James Leone
>
>
>  >David Hummel
>  >Genomics & Gene Discovery
>  >WRRC/ARS/USDA
>  >
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Stephen Hindle
I.T. Sage
"Enlightened Solutions for Open Minds"
http://www.itsage.com




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