[svlug] Re: using linux in schools

[George Georgalis]

First off, I'd like to thank everyone for their insightful responses.
There have been many points I didn't consider, most notably the use of
games whether written or merely played by the students.

There have been some conflicting ideas about the level of exposure young
minds can tolerate with regard to OS or programming. My first exposure
to programming was BASIC on a Commodore P.E.T. in 1977, thanks to a
zealous elementary school teacher who provided it, out of pocket, for us
to discover, along with some rudimentary BASIC programming techniques.
We even had 'computer music' by creating data streams on cassette that
could be played back in a tape player. :) As an adolescent I did some
assembly on a Commodore VIC-20, but turned it off for 12 years due to
lack of peers with interest.

Anyway, I think it is true that many kids under 8 would basically stall
under all but the most rigorous instructional regime. Though, I don't
feel this is a reason not to offer the exposure. For example, if first
graders were exposed to Turtle Logo, for a few hours a month; and second
graders a little more often; at third grade I'm sure several kids would
be ready to embrace the idea of creativity and programming equals a
positive result. And, equally important, those kids who are not so
computer inclined will have a significant advantage by understanding
the approach required to make computers work; they will also have an
intimate appreciation of the computer as a utility because they will
have seen how their peers used it to transform an idea into a result.

Now on to a review of the responses...

On Mon, Mar 31, 2003 at 07:26:24PM +0100, Karsten M. Self wrote:
>Informally, what I've heard of educational computer projects is that the
>single biggest draw is the Internet itself.  Setting up a discussion
>site a'la Slashdot or Kuro5hin might be a interesting project.


On Mon, Mar 31, 2003 at 01:50:08PM -0800, Rafael Skodlar wrote:

>it's always good to have the setup done in a way that makes any
>work including "computing" attractive with lot's of fun.

>Kids are like adults with numerous interests which in many cases have
>little to do with computers and related hardware. For that reason it's
>important to emphasize that computers are just tools to do other great
>things in art, control repetitive and dangerous tasks, communicate
>across long distances, help disabled people, control traffic, etc. 

>It would be nice to include additional hardware like scanners to import
>their art and change it with digital tools. Kids can make a report on
>what other kids are doing in the project.

Great idea, I didn't even think about scanners or cameras!

>Additional projects might include some kind of digital IO box that would
>control other electronic devices. The simplest one that comes to mind is
>RS232 connected X-10 set of devices. With that you can control lights
>(light show, traffic lights), water pumps, train set or other (robotic)
>toys, etc. Have them modify the parameters to see the changes in the
>control chain.

This too is an excellent idea! For kids not interested in a keyboard or
screen, various robotics could be an excellent draw.

>Interesting project could include a microscope mounted camera to capture
>pictures of whatever samples kids want to analyze and share with other
>kids around the world. One possibility is to capture pictures of
>nocturnal animals or pets and then watch them the next day. You could
>put a tiny camera in bird feeder, nests, etc ...

Your imagination is much appreciated, Rafael.

On Mon, Mar 31, 2003 at 12:29:06PM -0800, Paul Cubbage wrote:

>- Figure out how to put the students in charge (you monitor) and let 
>them figure out what to do.  A Wiki would help that process.
>- Consider training trainers to teach others how to really use the web.
>- "Educational" software is mostly boring and most kids iignore it.
>- There is a developmental stage starting at around 16 where global 
>concepts start working.    Source code of interesting programs including 
>games are something they'll like.  Packaging it so that the make/compile 
>is easy is a big help.  Of 16 teenage authors, I had only one under 16. 
>I don't think you can get younger ones pogramming but anything you give 
>them that allows them to manipulate the system and get results is a plus 
>for < 16.
>- A major use in schools is just a place to write reports and print 
>them.  Less of a need today in the valley but still a need.
>- If you are building/installing systems, you could pre-load a set of 
>bookmarks that kids will like or find useful,  There are sites that give 
>pointers.  Good places to research and find answers are one group of 
>good bookmarks.
>- TuxPaint is a great program for younger students. Check out what else 
>is going on at newbreedssoftware.com and at tux4kids.org and 
>http://www.tux4kids.org/cgi-bin/t4k/wiki.pl?Projects


On Mon, Mar 31, 2003 at 12:54:30PM -0800, Bill Kendrick wrote:

>I admit I'm kind of geeky, but I started programming BASIC on my Atari back
>when I was 7 or 8 years old.  Nothing fabulous, but I got lots of little bits
>of things working.  If not very productive, I was at least having a LOT of
>fun.  And today, a lot of the game-oriented programming skills I was playing
>with are just sitting in my brain, up there with riding a bike, walking, and
>breathing. :^)

Yes, I'm not looking to teach CS. I'm thinking the best success could be
had by proper exposure, so kids can know what they are choosing from in
the future.  The basic skills in the corner of the brain should be an
asset too.


On Tue, Apr 01, 2003 at 12:37:38AM +0300, Ira Abramov wrote:
>Quoting Bill Kendrick, from the post of Mon, 31 Mar:
>> Uh... Perl _itself_ is kinda cryptic! :^/  I'd kinda hate to see a 6
>> year old trying to grok Perl.  (Then again, if they did, watch out
>> when they get older!)
>> 
>> Hrm.  Tk doesn't seem quite as 'fun' as SDL. ;^)  Not that I've played
>> with it much...
>
>uhhh!! have some mercy on the little tykes. start them out with python
>or even logo. perl is for smartasses that mastered "normal" programming
>languages and want to go nuts with Mr. wall's experiments in syntax
>chaos. it's one of the WORST ideas to teach it as a first language,
>infact it's liable to drive kids away from the computer screeming, or at
>the other extreme have them acquire some bad coding habbits. it's not a
>first language by any standard if you ask me.

On Mon, Mar 31, 2003 at 01:54:25PM -0800, Don Marti wrote:
>begin Ira Abramov quotation of Tue, Apr 01, 2003 at 12:37:38AM +0300:
>
>> uhhh!! have some mercy on the little tykes. start them out with python
>> or even logo. 
>
>http://www.python.org/doc/essays/cp4e.html


For me, I cannot emphasize enough the value of being taught Pascal, with
its rigorous structure. In this context I'm leaning towards Logo as
being a first language. Then Pascal, followed by Perl and Bash (maybe
python?) being introduced later when studies become serious and focused.


On Tue, Apr 01, 2003 at 02:59:39AM +0000, Robert Hajime Lanning wrote:

>Something to try is having a private Jabber server, then use the
>IM and Whiteboard capable clients.

Excellent idea. Terrific for introducing the concept and realities
of network communications.

>To realy use technolgy, you need to develope a curriculum around the
>technlogy.  Otherwise it is just a typewriter.

Which comes first the penguin or the egg?

>One thing that needs to be taught is, how to know what sources to trust
>as accurate.  (Especialy if the Internet is being used as a source for
>writing reports.)

YES. This is very important. My background makes me somewhat skilled
at this, but I still have no clue on how to teach the discretion of
credible information -- every topic is different, I rely on clues that
I recognize through experience. :-\ Teaching this could be tough.


On Mon, Mar 31, 2003 at 01:48:01PM -0600, Gabriel Sechan wrote:
>>From: "Starren, Erick X (NRSW N92R63)"

>>> but I was wondering what types of resources or environment
>>> would draw kids in to design a db or develop their networking and
>>> communication skills?

>>Such a project is probably a good idea.  It would mainly benefit
>>high-schoolers, not the lower grades.  Here's why.  Designing
>>a database requires some familiarlity with at least basic data
>>processing concepts such as files, fields, data types, keys,
>>normalization, indexes, input-process-output, etc.  This stuff is not
>>common knowledge in the general population, especially below high
>>school
>
>I don't think he actually wanted to get them to write one, I think he
>meant to interest them in programming and computers.

Err, yeah. But this brings to point, the self taught model is prone to
fuzzy bounds. Whereas an established curriculum can keep the student focused
on the task and away from the underlying machinery, which can be distracting.

>To the OP- have you considered games?  How about creating a simple game.  
>The music people can be taught digital music composition.  The artists can 
>learn Gimp.  The coders can program.  The writers can write the 
>plot/storyline.  Writing a game is something that will spark a lot of 
>imaginations, and requires diverse skills.

Gabe, no I wasn't thinking about games, or music for that matter; good
points.


On Mon, Mar 31, 2003 at 02:44:54PM -0800, Matt Bosworth wrote:
>
>Back to the original topic. . .
>
>Check out k12linux.org -- I met these guys at LinuxExpo a couple years
>ago.  They want to put linux in schools. . .  The site includes some
>admin stuff aimed at school network admins, but it also contains some
>links to linux educational software.

On Tue, Apr 01, 2003 at 12:47:36AM -0800, DJA wrote:

>3) Collaborative projects. Especially, cross-cultural projects. The 
>Internet, of course, lends itself quite nicely here. Think about a 
>classroom in San Diego collaborating with a classroom in Kobe, Japan on 
>a project report on something like the Ecology of the Ocean. Or cultural 
>diversity, social mores, etc. Pick a topic.

Excellent idea. I did an exchange program where I spent a week in a 
New Mexico Indian reservation while in the 3rd grade. Nothing went as
planned, but this was a valuable experience for me. The internet offers
an opportunity to virtually do this, every month, with communities which
are also connected to the net.

Again, thanks all for your help! Links follow.

// George


http://www.python.org/doc/essays/cp4e.html
Computer Programming for Everybody, A Scouting Expedition for the
Programmers of Tomorrow

http://k12linux.org/
Welcome to the K-12Linux Project!

http://tux4kids.org/
Tux4Kids is an organization dedicated to producing and promoting quality
educational software

http://www.tux4kids.org/cgi-bin/t4k/wiki.pl?Projects
Tux4Kids sponsored projects

http://www.newbreedsoftware.com/tuxprint/
Tux Print is a 'publishing' program oriented towards children.

On Mon, Mar 31, 2003 at 12:36:07PM -0800, Bill Kendrick wrote:

  SEUL/edu   (Simple End User Linux, Educational group)
  http://www.seul.org/edu/

  Schoolforge
  http://www.schoolforge.net/

  K12OS  (K-12 Open Source)
  http://www.k12os.org/

  Open Source Schools
  http://www.opensourceschools.org/

  Open Source Educational Group
  http://www.opensourced.org/


On Mon, Mar 31, 2003 at 01:01:55PM -0500, George Georgalis wrote:
>I'm working on a project that has potential to provide children (k-12)
>with hardware and good network connection at one site and be the center
>of an organized nation wide network.
>
>The technology should give them internet access and help them with their
>studies. A very general statement. What I am looking for is ideas to
>make this more than internet browser and word processor kiosks. I'd like
>to come up with something that really engages the students, draws them
>to interact, be productive and collaborate with others in the program.
>
>There is no specific curriculum that must be provided so I was
>wondering what your ideas are to attract kids to the idea of network
>computing? Many people reading this might say give them a shell and
>Pascal educational modules (or some other language); but this will only
>attract a small percentage of the kids.
>
>I would provide all the basic types of programs, write, draw, paint,
>www, email; but I was wondering what types of resources or environment
>would draw kids in to design a db or develop their networking and
>communication skills?
>
>// George
>


-- 
GEORGE GEORGALIS, System Admin/Architect    cell: 347-451-8229 
Security Services, Web, Mail,            mailto:george at galis.org 
Multimedia, DB, DNS and Metrics.       http://www.galis.org/george